School of out-of-body travel and lucid dreaming

Summerlander exposes praveen as a nitwit

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Summerlander exposes praveen as a nitwit

Postby praveenhereagain » Mon May 15, 2017 5:28 pm

Obe4u guys can call him God, not me or the people who had real astral projection.

I see you have banned my previous account without guts to talk to me in your place than destroying my forum with your stupid thoughts. You are still a member in my forum with freedom of speech as you asked. As you deleted my account, I consider this forum is just for the ignorant blind followers and doesn't have a freedom of speech.

Well, before you call me a kid, consider yourself a brainless kid who started the useless conversation just for the sake of publicity and advertisement.

If you really have guts to fight me and prove my experiences are just a dream, fight me here!

I will start loading this forum with mine and my forum members real experience, to prove that you and your forum is just trying to make money with a new mombo jumbo word "phase"!

Have guts?
Well, no. You don't have guts to fight in your heavenly place, all you can do is just delete this post and delete my account in here. Just because I'm talking truth here!

Have guts to fight in your place?
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Re: The brainless kid Summerlander has no guts to fight in h

Postby Summerlander » Mon May 15, 2017 10:18 pm

Ok, I will allow you to have this account indefinitely. But only to let you know that you have just shown yourself to be an oxymoronic hypocrite. I thought you had no interest in debating me in the first place since you are the one who asked me 'politely' to leave your website. Talk about freedom of speech, eh! What gives now, Mr. Dishonesty?

Just so you know, I do provide freedom of expression here as long as people don't waste my time with infantility. If you don't bring anything valuable to the table of adults, you can carry on playing with your toys and off you go to your bedroom. C:-)

I consider some people to be worse less than shit. Shit only repulses me one way: the smell. Some human beings can drive you insane with their fatuity. As an Admin of this forum, I am privileged to have a 'banning' option which I'll use as I see fit. Some members just need to be flushed out. Especially the misologistic ones!

Praveen won't even use his because he is too concerned about appearances. Instead, he tolerates my presence in his territory and pretends it doesn't bother him that much whilst 'politely'---as if nobody ever witnessed passive aggression---trying to dissuade me from staying put. So, as you can see, dear readers, his hypocrisy extends this far. For someone who talks about others not having the guts with such bravado, he surely doesn't seem to practise what he preaches! In his territory he says, 'I'm asking you to go away politely,' without addressing any of my points at all, and in here his first thought wasn't even to debate---it was to throw ad hominems and calumniate. Why? Because he simply feels like I trod on his toes. Well, boohoo ... ::)

Ahem ... So fire away if you reckon you have the truth: What proof do you have for hour astral projection proposition? (Be warned! I've been here too many times before and you are setting yourself up for humiliation. At the end of it I will copypaste this debate onto your website for all to see.) 8)

We'll see if this brainless kid really is brainless. We've already established that he's not running! 1-0! Praveen's losing. ;D

The fact that I will stop perceiving the world one day dismays me. But a part of me---concerned with ego---thinks that the bravest are those who can face and accept anything beyond their control; I'd like to be amongst them. And another side of me simply observes the experiential content without identifying with anything. This pristine awareness just appreciates experience in all its flavours and isn't concerned with any outcome. It allows everything to be with fascination and no labels. It sees the splendour of reality. I would like to cultivate this perspective more because it allows me to simply be and let all be. I'll be too busy contemplating life to be concerned with selfish impulses. And when it's all over I won't know anything anymore. I won't even know I'm missing out. I won't BE. I won't be in death. I will simply have died. Oblivion is our home; we've been there before.

 We can have meaning but we should always be aware of the intrinsic truth that nothing really matters. In fact, we should be able to accept that 'meaning' is just a concept in the minds of human monkeys so they can define and identify things in reality. That's how they have been navigating in the world. And sometimes their definitions are embellished. That's what the brain does; it's an amazing organ that tells stories in order to make sense of reality---and sometimes any 'explanation' will do because it's better than nothing, so the selection is often based on what pleases the organism rather than what is true. This is true all the time for Praveen.

Yes, apes. That's exactly what we are. But we certainly have the potential to break out of our atavisms and find a more productive way of living life. We just need to spread Enlightenment and show the masses that this is a better way of conduct as it promotes truth-seeking, science and reason. (Unlike Praveen's poop forum which doesn't even have a scientific research section.
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Re: The brainless kid Summerlander has no guts to fight in h

Postby praveenhereagain » Tue May 16, 2017 12:37 am

Summerlander wrote:Ok, I will allow you to have this account indefinitely. But only to let you know that you have just shown yourself to be an oxymoronic hypocrite. I thought you had no interest in debating me in the first place since you are the one who asked me 'politely' to leave your website. Talk about freedom of speech, eh! What gives now, Mr. Dishonesty?

How gracious that OBE4U's God allowed me to stay in his Heavenly place. I will be grateful for him and obe4u by exposing that "the phase" is just a cult to generate revenue. When did I act like oxymoronic? I was always stubborn on my points, I always believed in astral projection. Lol, can't you understand such small things? I asked you to politely leave my website because you were trying to make yourself God in the forum. In contrary, you were trying to hijack people in forumforastral to sell your $300 skype program indirectly.

I do believe in "the phase" techniques, after all, it's just a common techniques which every other people talk, I am here to offend that "Astral projection" is all in your mind and you never left your body. Lol, how funny it is to back this up with science. Ah, yeah, nowadays, when you say science/quantum mechanics somewhere, people will be in the excited state and be sit on edge of their seats to listen to it. He got the right business strategy!

Summerlander wrote:Just so you know, I do provide freedom of expression here as long as people don't waste my time with infantility. If you don't bring anything valuable to the table of adults, you can carry on playing with your toys and off you go to your bedroom.

Lol, A time waster talk about his time wasted. Whereas he rants in all possible forums preaching that HE is God and a Right hand for Micheal Raduga. Just purely a public stunt. Also, I don't have toys to play like you did in my forum. I will be bringing the real facts on your face, let me see how you will be backing up.

Summerlander wrote:I consider some people to be worse less than shit. Shit only repulses me one way: the smell. Some human beings can drive you insane with their fatuity. As an Admin of this forum, I am privileged to have a 'banning' option which I'll use as I see fit. Some members just need to be flushed out. Especially the misologistic ones!

Yes, you read my mind. I will be shortly flushing you from my forum as well. Alright obe4u God?

Summerlander wrote:Praveen won't even use his because he is too concerned about appearances. Instead, he tolerates my presence in his territory and pretends it doesn't bother him that much whilst 'politely'---as if nobody ever witnessed passive aggression---trying to dissuade me from staying put. So, as you can see, dear readers, his hypocrisy extends this far. For someone who talks about others not having the guts with such bravado

Bravo Bravo, I just believed your statement. I don't think I have to ban anyone in my forum except you who is trying to advertise yourself as God, you can see forumforastral's history, by the way, I have banned only advertisers, not a real people trying to discuss. Not like here, who just bans everyone else other than the blind followers.

Summerlander wrote:he surely doesn't seem to practise what he preaches! In his territory he says, 'I'm asking you to go away politely,' without addressing any of my points at all, and in here his first thought wasn't even to debate---it was to throw ad hominems and calumniate. Why? Because he simply feels like I trod on his toes. Well, boohoo ...

Lol I don't preach in my forum, I help people for free. In contrary, I see you here selling a skype session for $300. Ha ha! I can smell money here.
Also, I don't have address each and every brainless thought of yours. Yep, I am not here for a debate, I am here to expose you and your stuff in your place. When a mad dog's steps on someone's toes, they have to report it to someone right?

Summerlander wrote:Ahem ... So fire away if you reckon you have the truth: What proof do you have for hour astral projection proposition? (Be warned! I've been here too many times before and you are setting yourself up for humiliation. At the end of it I will copypaste this debate onto your website for all to see.)

Lol, you are just showing your stupidity in here, nothing more than that. I will be showing you my experiences on your face shortly, let me see how you can defend.

Summerlander wrote:We'll see if this brainless kid really is brainless. We've already established that he's not running! 1-0! Praveen's losing.

Who is "WE" here? I don't see anyone else talking here. Also, it's funny to announce yourself that you are 1-0! Haha, how funny, you just acted like a 2-year-old kid. I can relate this to a 2-year-old kid who says, I won even before starting the game.

Man, I should say this, you are really an entertainer, I am laughing here non-stop! ROFL!

Also, I don't see any of your followers seeing this post. False God?

By the way, I am removing your "dick", sorry. your dick post in my forum (don't worry, rest of the posts will be there as is). It offends the rules of my forum policy. Rest make sure you write in my forum without pornographic or vulgar related posts. If you think "dick" isn't that way, you can do your own research. I don't have to waste my time explaining what it is.
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Re: The brainless kid Summerlander has no guts to fight in h

Postby praveenhereagain » Tue May 16, 2017 12:48 am

advertisement.png
A pure advertisement to sell $300 skype session
advertisement.png (54.44 KiB) Viewed 119 times


I am posting here the advertisement made by Mr. Brainless.
I should appreciate that it's a new kind of strategy, I am sure he is a real business guy!

@brainless: just an off topic question, how much do you earn using obe4u? I'm asking this out of curiosity, you don't have to be exact, just an approximate value will help me understand obe4u/the phase school better.
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Re: The brainless kid Summerlander has no guts to fight in h

Postby praveenhereagain » Tue May 16, 2017 1:14 am

I will wait for you to read and respond in your phase terms, how that could be just happening inside the brain. If you want me to copy paste that here, I can do that, there are many shreds of evidence provided in the below link, I request you to go through it thoroughly before denying it. If you want to deny those, give a brief explanation backing up each one of them by citing a quote here.

Awaiting your response in return.

http://www.iacworld.org/evidence-for-ou ... henomenon/

Amen,
Praveen Astral (forumforastral.com)
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Re: The brainless kid Summerlander has no guts to fight in h

Postby praveenhereagain » Tue May 16, 2017 4:18 am

I guess this was added lately after I responded earlier.
Summerlander wrote:Yes, apes. That's exactly what we are. But we certainly have the potential to break out of our atavisms and find a more productive way of living life. We just need to spread Enlightenment and show the masses that this is a better way of conduct as it promotes truth-seeking, science and reason. (Unlike Praveen's poop forum which doesn't even have a scientific research section.


Still thinking like a kid. Haha
Why should I create a research section when you can talk openly? lol.

I guess you have restricted me by editing my posts, the feature was there earlier. lol. Funny you!
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Re: The brainless kid Summerlander has no guts to fight in h

Postby Summerlander » Tue May 16, 2017 10:14 am

praveenhereagain wrote:How gracious that OBE4U's God allowed me to stay in his Heavenly place. I will be grateful for him and obe4u by exposing that "the phase" is just a cult to generate revenue.


Everybody here knows Michael Raduga retired and I'm certainly not making money from this website. Praveen is, like I said before merely a pathetic little dick venting here because he feels like I trod on his toes. Sad thing is that he can't even back up what he claims.

This site isn't about attracting people with mumbo jumbo fantasies and pseudoscientific New Age piffle like his ludicrous site forumforastral. In here you get the truth, according to science whether people like it or not. No astral gimmicks like Mr. Admin Praveen! With him, hypocrisy and self delusion knows no bounds. :D

praveenhereagain wrote:When did I act like oxymoronic?


Your contradictions have been pointed out above. Stop being lazy and re-read my post. Also, one minute you say you don't believe in the phase state and the next minute you say you do (and you can clearly see your post unedited by me since you also conveniently make that false allegation). :))

praveenhereagain wrote:I was always stubborn on my points, I always believed in astral projection. Lol, can't you understand such small things?


Yes, you have ALWAYS believed in astral projection since you were a kid. Children don't know much about the world and tend to believe in anything they are exposed to---like fairies and Santa Claus stories. They don't require evidence---it's enough for mummy and daddy to say the tooth fairy leaves coins under their pillow while they sleep. Praveen never grew out of those fantasies. He never grew up. His ego identifies with his outdated beliefs and hence the reason why he takes offence at anything contradictory. ::)

praveenhereagain wrote:I asked you to politely leave my website because you were trying to make yourself God in the forum.


My presence threatened you that much even though I do not possess my 'godly' powers in your forum? Do I really mean that much to you? Fear not, my child. You are the king of your toy castle. It is your bedroom there. I merely told children to tidy up their toys because there is more to life than imaginative playing. It's sad to see so many individuals in your forum so far divorced from reality. 8)

praveenhereagain wrote:In contrary, you were trying to hijack people in forumforastral to sell your $300 skype program indirectly.


I don't know what your talking about. No skype program was ever mentioned nor advertised in your site apart from the mention of this forum where people can discuss things like adults. You cannot back this statement because you do not have evidence. And why should this be? Because your vilification of me and this forum is unfounded and your defamatory statements simply false.

You also continue to lie about the reason why you begged me to leave. It wasn't because I advertised anything. It was because I denied and eloquently impugned the astral projection hypothesis. The evidence is all there for all to see---unless, of course, you have taken to the trouble of editing your messages and mine. >:D

praveenhereagain wrote:I do believe in "the phase" techniques, after all, it's just a common techniques which every other people talk, I am here to offend that "Astral projection" is all in your mind and you never left your body. Lol, how funny it is to back this up with science.


Oh science does it well, baby. In over 150 years of neuroscience we can tell that everything about the mind is expungeable via cerebral damage or malfunction. Even healthy living persons can lose consciousness temporarily. So many types of conditions that can impair perception and understanding on so many levels. Aphasias and agnosias are rife and their brain causes identified. If a good bop on the head can extinguish your memory or put an end to sight, hearing or facial recognition (depending on which cerebral part is affected) how can people expect to see, hear and recognise their deceased loved ones once the brain is destroyed? This is what you have thus far refused to address. Instead, you merely go by anecdotal evidence (which isn't evidence at all).

You love to quote pseudoscientists, disgraced parapsychologists, dishonest moneygrubbing doctors, and other publicised stories for the sake of sensationalism. You also claim that the alleged adventures posted on your site are proof of the astral projection proposition knowing fully well any biased individual, liar or schizo can post tripe anywhere. That's not science, my friend. I don't even think you have a clue about what science entails. ;D

praveenhereagain wrote:Ah, yeah, nowadays, when you say science/quantum mechanics somewhere, people will be in the excited state and be sit on edge of their seats to listen to it. He got the right business strategy!


Like you do with your astral projection, afterlife and God are backed up by a so-called doctor by the name of Eben Alexander. ::)

praveenhereagain wrote:Also, I don't have toys to play like you did in my forum. I will be bringing the real facts on your face, let me see how you will be backing up.


I'm still waiting for your facts. So far, I don't see any. You haven't even touched upon the fact that I exposed your ignorance of a hybrid state of the brain which has been scientifically confirmed to exist (you can also browse our scientific research section for other links):

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/medicalxpress.com/news/2016-01-ability-unravel-mystery-consciousness.amp

praveenhereagain wrote:Yes, you read my mind. I will be shortly flushing you from my forum as well. Alright obe4u God?


You've changed your tone yet again! It must be my influence although I would be this fickle and oxymoronic. Why the sudden change of heart? Scared that this debate might expose your fallacies in front of your fawning members? I thought your forum was all about freedom of expression ... :))

praveenhereagain wrote:Bravo Bravo, I just believed your statement.


You'll believe anything by the looks of it. Don't worry, kiddo, one day you might just stumble upon the truth and climb out of your ignorance. O0

praveenhereagain wrote:I help people for free.


You help people for free? Aww ... What a good samaritan. See, told you he only cares about how he comes across. ::)

praveenhereagain wrote:In contrary,


Erm ... it's 'on the contrary'. He can't even write properly and he calls himself an 'Admin'. Perhaps if you worked more on your grammar and vocabulary (and less astral playing) you'd have more 'freedom of expression'! :D

praveenhereagain wrote:I see you here selling a skype session for $300. Ha ha! I can smell money here.


You must know this site better than I do then because I am not aware of it. Individuals who smell money like that say a lot about themselves. Even here his hypocrisy is showing. I only come to the forum these days to have fun with idiots like these by impugning their garbled tripe. 8)

praveenhereagain wrote:Also, I don't have address each and every brainless thought of yours. Yep, I am not here for a debate,


Of course you are not here to debate. I could have told you that. You simply haven't got the nous and I never expected you to behave like an adult anyway. You are simply here in an attempt to pointscore and I thought I'd play a game with a newborn like you for fun.

I'd love to see him identify those brainless thoughts. For someone who believes in astral projection and that the mind is independent of the brain, he seems to invoke the word 'brainless' a lot when he perceives others to be mindless idiots. The irony! Apparently he believes in 'brainless thoughts' too! :))

praveenhereagain wrote:Also, I don't see any of your followers seeing this post. False God?


I don't have followers. You do. You're the cult leader. Remember? ;)

praveenhereagain wrote:By the way, I am removing your "dick", sorry. your dick post in my forum (don't worry, rest of the posts will be there as is). It offends the rules of my forum policy.


Hilarious! So much for freedom of expression! I should say to your followers that in here they can swear as much as they like. Swear words are still words and---contrary to popular opinion---they do have the power to emphasise points when used in moderation. I swear myself on this forum. No editing people's posts ever. (Although I do flush out pornography from time to time in order to protect the kiddies.) 8)

Rest make sure you write in my forum without pornographic or vulgar related posts. If you think "dick" isn't that way, you can do your own research. I don't have to waste my time explaining what it is.
[/quote]

Because dick is only used to mean 'the phallus' and nothing else. Right. You have a dirty mind, Praveen. :o

Oh! By the way ... in case you haven't noticed, there is a Mystical Approach section here, too! You are welcome to play with your toys there. C:-)
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Re: The brainless kid Summerlander has no guts to fight in h

Postby Summerlander » Tue May 16, 2017 10:30 am

praveenhereagain wrote:I am posting here the advertisement made by Mr. Brainless.
I should appreciate that it's a new kind of strategy, I am sure he is a real business guy!


I'm sorry but ... Am I missing something here? I don't see any Skype business advertised on my post---not even a quote is mentioned. All I see is you quoting my post with your labelling. ^-^

praveenhereagain wrote:@brainless: just an off topic question, how much do you earn using obe4u? I'm asking this out of curiosity, you don't have to be exact, just an approximate value will help me understand obe4u/the phase school better.


Oh look who is interested in money now! I don't know who gave you the idea that I am making money from OBE4u but you should know that I'm not interested in making money (unlike you). Everything I've done for this site, from educating people to research and truth-seeking, has been for free. Perhaps I'm the good samaritan you claim to be. Only I don't brag about it. The difference between you and me.

Most people are not ready to pay for what they often deem to be uncomfortable truths. They are, however, willing to pay for consoling lies such as afterlives and astral projection. Alleged immortality sells. You, of all people, should know that, Praveen. 8)
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Re: The brainless kid Summerlander has no guts to fight in h

Postby Summerlander » Tue May 16, 2017 10:57 am

praveenhereagain wrote:I will wait for you to read and respond in your phase terms, how that could be just happening inside the brain. If you want me to copy paste that here, I can do that, there are many shreds of evidence provided in the below link, I request you to go through it thoroughly before denying it. If you want to deny those, give a brief explanation backing up each one of them by citing a quote here.

Awaiting your response in return.

http://www.iacworld.org/evidence-for-ou ... henomenon/

Amen,
Praveen Astral (forumforastral.com)


You have not presented any scientific sources. I have impugned your knavish heros a thousands times over the years it just gets tedious. I haven't got time to go through each and everyone of you but I will post here some scientific facts and reason which expose all of them as frauds---from crackpot parapsychologists whose conclusions are unfounded and certainly not corroborated to cases of media sensationalism and tabloid junk like that of Miss Z.


As I have stressed before that, as far as I'm aware, they are both distinctions we make for experiences that arise with the manifestation of hybrid brain activity which conflates dreaming with wakefulness. This hybrid cerebral condition has been aptly labelled by Michael Raduga's school of out-of-body travel as 'the phase' or the 'phase state'. In both OBEs and lucid dreams, waking consciousness is experienced. In the former, the subject is focused on the fact that it feels like one is somewhere other than where the sleeping body is (and may even believe this is really happening). In the latter, the subject recognises the experience to be nothing more than a dream. Both can give you the sensation of being out of body if you remember that your body is really lying in bed. In fact, even ordinary dreams can give you the sensation of being out-of-body. The 'OBE' acronym almost loses meaning ... :mrgreen:

Elsewhere I said:

'Regions of the brain such as the thalamus are thought to sometimes provoke distortions in proprioception during the phase state--hence the perceived separations from the sleeping body into usually inaccurate (yet familiar) replicas of real world, i.e. mental bedroom representations based on memory and sprinkled with distortions and additions from the subconscious mind.

So, yeah, once you apparently leave your body, you can do whatever you like. (It is best to have an action plan ready, though, in order to avoid hesitation which could cause a premature awakening.) Make no mistake about it: the dream world can closely emulate--and even outdo--the real world in quality. So if you recognise the phase state surroundings to be an illusion, you are lucid dreaming. You can always, of course, be sceptic of the sceptic and, if in doubt, try to read the pages of a book during an OBE to see if they remain fixed and if they match that of the real world.

Consciousness, in my opinion, is a phenomenon which is somehow generated by a physical gestalt. (The details of its emergence are still unknown.) If I were to define it, though, I'd say it is merely what it is like to be something--and perception cannot exist without it. What perceives? Not a soul--as endorsers of the orphic and supernatural would have you believe. The physical system somehow perceives and we are yet to suss out how the human brain works.'

I've also experienced a few uncanny occurrences of my own which could only be said to suggest--but never solely imply--out-of-body travel, precognition, and visual telepathy (whereby I appeared to see things that were ostensibly existent in the minds of others. But I had to beware of confirmation bias both on my part and my friends'. We must also consider that we are pattern-seeking animals who will assign great significance to apparent hits and completely ignore the misses that outnumber them. Considering how many dreams we've had so far, and how many dreams 7 billion people experience as the world turns, it can be said that weird would be if the odd or coincidental ones never occurred. Imagine if everyone played the lottery and nobody ever won! :D

I'd like to see someone winning the James Randi prize by proving, in an experiment, that OBEs can be the reality of an individual awareness acquiring an objective perspective instead of the experience being completely subjective and thus dreamed by the mind. 8-)

I have researched this in depth years ago. NDEs don't prove anything for a number of reasons besides being anecdotal, sensationalised by the media or otherwise. First and foremost, near-death experiences are not death experiences--they are brought on by physical trauma and victims live to tell the tale. Secondly, 'no measurable brain activity' does not mean 'no brain activity'. As Michael Persinger once pointed out, there are cerebral reverberations that can only be detected in laboratories as hospitals don't have--and don't require--the appropriate equipment to dig that deep.

Finally, even if an individual was comatosed with minimal and insufficient brain activity to warrant a vividly conscious experience, how can we be sure that the reported experience happened during the cerebrally inert period and not as the patient was coming to and therefore precisely at the time when the brain was simultaneously reactivating?

I'm familiar with some of the names you have mentioned and they have been criticised and shamed by the scientific community. It's very simple: if you are doing bad science, or pseudo-science, you will get caught once your work is peer-reviewed. Nobody in the scientific community is trying to suppress a possible afterlife scenario. Science doesn't work like this. Everybody competes for recognition or a Nobel Prize and we all want to know the answers. But some people seem to want fantasies passed off as truisms no matter how scant the evidence. :D

Scientists have investigated many claims. They have given many beliefs in gods, spirits, and the paranormal the benefit of the doubt. And guess what: they found absolutely nothing... Did you know that Darwin's cousin Francis Galton was one of the first to test the efficacy of praying? He even used believers and Church devotees in a double-blind experiment. Praying was found to be ineffective. And yet, people still believe ...

The rumoured link between autism and vaccines comes from a study by Andrew Wakefield which was published in the Lancet. His study was found to be a hoax and his licence was revoked. Exposed by the scientific community. And still some people still think vaccines are bad in this sense and dangerously deprived their children of them ... Pseudo-scientists and sophists are getting more sophisticated these days but only enough to dupe the layman. Long gone are the precarious days of Duncan McDougal, whose 23 grams were found to have a mundane explanation ... not the weight of the human soul as he claimed.

And what if the self is nothing but a user illusion? I think you will find this topic quite interesting: (Read all of it, it's quite rich!) :)

http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/ ... 11&t=16533

Just one question: Shouldn't a parapsychologist's conclusions stand up to scrutiny and be immune to the materialist's interpretation? It seems like the parapsychologist still doesn't have enough to make other mundane possibilities go away. Why isn't the parapsychologist making a good case for why the materialist's interpretation isn't tenable? Here is a sceptical review with Susan Blackmore on OBEs which illustrates why we still haven't got enough to say that they are real in the sense that they tell us something accurate about the objective world because it is this one that is viewed during such state:

http://www.near-death.com/science/skept ... ption.html

It is estimated that only 20% of people who have endured traumatic experiences reported NDEs. Does this mean that there is no afterlife for the majority? Or is it more likely that the 20% stumbled upon an unusual brain state conducive to a hallucinatory experience which can easily be interpreted by some as a glimpse of an afterlife?


Your hypothesis has a few problems. The first is the fact that no frequency has been detected which identifies with consciousness inside or outside the brain. (And yet the CERN folks have detected the Higgs boson which bestows mass to other particles.) Secondly, if consciousness is something that the brain tunes into, why is it that we become unconscious? Doesn't this imply that we are not consciousness but merely the physical body which cannot be aware of itself without it? So, even this would not support any afterlife or even OBEs as real exits from the body. And then we have split-brain patients who are experimented on. Both hemispheres are shown different things and told to draw what 'they' have seen. If the right side sees eggs and draws them but they ask the left side why eggs were drawn, the patient will come up with an irrelevant confabulation, such as, 'I had them for breakfast!' when it may not even be true. This is one of the many examples of how brains try to make sense of any situation and any 'explanation' will do.

Finally, nobody has definitively demonstrated that NDEs happen when the patient's brain has no measurable brain activity. Awareness of time can be distorted as the person is slowly coming to and the brain is thus regaining its tremendous default activity. It has been suggested that such subjects experience bursts of REM as they are regaining consciousness and then whatever dreams they happen to have are mistakenly interpreted to be the 'other side' or to have happened while they were completely out.

Note that you are presupposing how consciousness comes about in the brain and even equating it with bioelectrical power when this isn't necessarily true. First, you need to take into account that the presence of consciousness seems to depend on a highly integrated information system. (This is why peopke with Alzheimer's have so many problems once their cerebral connections deteriorate: loss of memory; mood swings; identity loss; personality change; spaced out etc.)

Secondly, low voltage but high-frequency waves beget more awareness than high voltage but low-frequency ones. Hence beta and delta waves. Consciousness here has nothing to do with electrical power but what seems to be relevant is a balanced dose of vibrations within a complex physical organ such as the brain. What you stated above is a fallacy.

By the way, judging from your posts, you would call a pair of little girs claiming to have seen fairies and providing photographs as strong evidence that such beings exist and more readily dismiss the most probable explanation: children with a vivid imagination who decided to get creative by drawing fairies and making photographic montages. It's an example of how your reasoning would probably work--or fail to work--if this case were being discussed. I'm not necessarily saying that you said you believe in fairies! You understand this, yeah? Or do I have to reiterate it in nursery gobbledegook?

we do know that memory and consciousness depend upon a working brain for their manifestation. And it is quite telling that a complex physical system such as the brain should have such dictatorial power over mental phenomena. I think the most likely scenario is that death means death once the brain turns to mush.

I know people who have had NDEs who feel that the experience does not come close to that of LSD. Indeed, such psychedelics can dramatically change a person, too. But even if NDEs were somewhat distinct from most hallucinations ... so what? It doesn't mean anything. It could be that they are just a different type of hallucination involving a different range of emotions. Just because a type of experience feels different doesn't make it more echt than the rest.

I would also add that sceptics, some of them scientists, have been sceptical of scientific novelties, too--not just conjuring tricks and paranormal claims. But the difference is that the scientific discoveries and practical applications proved their validity through verificationism whilst allegations of the paranormal remain insubstantial.

To provide some examples, William Thomson, first Lord Kelvin, once claimed that the Earth was too young for evolution to have occurred. Wrong! He also said that radio had no future, heavier than air flying machines are impossible, and that X-rays would prove to be a hoax. Now our generation ridicules him because he couldn't have been more wrong. Still, he was sceptic of scientific theories but the theories survived and were authenticated with evidence. When Thomas Edison announced that he was working on electric light, the sceptical team sent by the British Parliamentary commission said that the idea of the light bulb was unworthy of the attention of practical or scientific men. Again, proved wrong.

So why aren't sceptics proved wrong about the paranormal when such fantastic claims are older than the scientific method? Why is it conveniently dubbed the occult?
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Re: The brainless kid Summerlander has no guts to fight in h

Postby Summerlander » Tue May 16, 2017 11:00 am

There are many types of hallucination. You get them in the waking state; you get them when you dream (sleep hallucinations); and NDEs could just be traumatically induced. Regardless of whether one chooses to call them hallucinations or not (going by some precise, and in my opinion, parochial definition), NDEs are most likely generated by the living brain. Your perception of the world and your body are entirely created by your brain, hence why it is said that a pain experienced in your arm really happens in your head (the brain's body image). This has been demonstrated in peculiar sciatic cases where phantom pain was experienced in limbs but the damage was found to be in the spine. One could, in fact, describe perception of the world as a very elaborate hallucination constrained by sensory input. I don't even see a sound basis for your argument here other than obscurantist semantics.

Ignoring the sensational claims of liars and pseudo-scientists who think they can get away with hoaxes, there is no evidence whatever for such claims. Also, the reporting does indeed occur when they are conscious, of course (!), but very likely so does the memory of something that never happened. There is no reason to believe that NDEs happened during negligible brain activity and plenty suggesting it originated during cortical arousal.

The electrical surge in dying brains is only intriguing insofar as the poor individual's experience goes in that moment. It does not necessarily indicate an afterlife. Also, what you call sloppy thinking comes after examination of specific cases. If there was any truth to paranormal claims, they'd be common knowledge by now. Like lucid dreaming! Time and again, those who claim OBEs are real and not illusory fail to prove it. Many of us sceptics want to believe but we have searched and found nothing but the finality of death as a strong contender. It's time to move on, let go, or you will be forever here!

As for consciousness, there is indeed an integrated information theory by Tononi, a theory which is being tested and hasn't been falsified thus far. But who knows! According to you, any identified neural correlates of consciousness are irrelevant as you seem to believe that consciousness exists independent of brains. You claim to have enough to suggest this but what are you doing about falsifying your theory? It seems to me, suspiciously, that you want the Cartesian dualism to be true no matter what contradictory evidence may come up.

I'd like to see you addressing all my scientific points and rsason, Praveen. Also, look at the links and see if you can thoroughly falsify them. If you can't, you are not equipped to debate and clearly full of shit. ;)
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Re: The brainless kid Summerlander has no guts to fight in h

Postby Summerlander » Tue May 16, 2017 11:09 am

There cannot be a conspiracy theory in the scientific community hell-bent on hiding some paranormal truth, as you seem to imply, because what is out there is discoverable by everyone. I've already provided examples where mundane things, such as the light bulb and heavier than air flying machines, were doubted by sceptics and these were subsequently proved wrong. This isn't happening with the paranormal, my dear, because such claims simply aren't true. (What's worse, they've been around longer than those mundane things that science proved possible.)

Are you familiar with the philosophy of David Hume? We can't possibly check the veracity of all cases when they happen but ask yourself what is more likely: Hysterical sensationalism akin to the 'dance of the Sun' as sold by the Vatican (which happens all the time in tabloids and the media in general), or that an immaterial soul exited some body and could see and hear things independent of a brain--contradicting everything gathered so far neuroscientifically. Moreover, how could something non-physical ever interact with the physical? It would have to be physical by definition and thus we would be pressed to examine it in order to figure out how consciousness comes about. Since the brain, as the most complex organ we know, affects consciousness if we deliberately toy with it, what are we to conclude if not that awareness comes about through specific physical signatures in reality? Your dualism could never explain consciousness, it would only perpetuate the mystery.

I very much doubt that an afterlife or a soul will be discovered as extensions of physical reality. Something like the Higgs boson has been discovered which explains why particles have mass. And yet, a hypothetical soul, which is supposed to grossly control complex organisms such as our bodies, is nowhere to be found. You are persisting in entertaining an idea which has remained insubstantial with the advent and progression of the scientific method of enquiry.

The beauty of science is that it formulates theories which are then tested against reality. This is a search for truth. Lucid dreaming is a truth and so it was found. Dualistic expressions are older than the first descriptions of lucid dreaming, and yet, the latter was found to be true whilst the former seems more preposterous than ever.

My friend ...

I've read so much literature about consciousness like you wouldn't believe. In fact, we have explored it quite a bit in the currently active thread 'The Shocking Truth'. I am Summerlander, a veteran of these forums. I was once like you---obstinately insisting that there is more to OBEs and NDEs than meets the eye---young, naive, excited and not lettered on the subject; I used to quote 'Pam Reynolds' and 'Miss Zs'. But such stories are nothing but sensationalist frauds concocted by dissimulators.

If you really take into account all that parapsychological information in a perspicacious manner, you will realised that everything those slyboots have done is suspect---from their evaluation of probabilities and conclusive corollaries to their questionable methods and subjects. Trust me, I've been there! It's not my intention to patronise you but I see my younger self in you. :-D

Like I said before, NDErs taking their experiences to be real is redolent of dreamers erroneously mistaking ordinary dream scenarios for reality. In fact, your aforementioned distinction only tells me that NDEs are inferior states to lucid dreams and very much akin to hallucinatory delusions.

I don't think you can accuse me of being biased as much as I've accused you of being dogmatic. My stance is that if you have something to prove, prove it! I am waiting for it. But you can't because what you want to believe simply isn't true. You ask me what would constitute proof? Well, perhaps more Miss Zs around constantly getting more than just numbers right, repeating the experiment several times in succession and never failing. Hence why it shouldn't be a challenge (if it were real). The odds you provided for getting it right at least once are nothing when you consider population size and number of dreams experienced. :-D

Also, DMT/psilocybin/ayahuasca users, for instance, can believe the drugs help them to contact spirits and aliens; so what you were alluding to earlier that NDEs can't be hallucinations because many experiencers take them to be real is patently a non sequitur. It is simply a matter of people wanting to believe ... I am also speaking from the experience of taking drugs, practising meditation and having had an NDE myself---which I never believed, even at the time, was anything other than a traumatically induced subjective experience.

Lucid dreaming was discovered, investigated and demonstrated to be real because ... guess what ... it's real. The same cannot be said for conscious perspectives existing outside bodies. That's not how consciousness works; as much as we know about it, the phenomenon definitely requires certain physical conditions, i.e. a functional brain, in order to emerge. ;-)

Consider yourself annihilated.
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Re: The brainless kid Summerlander has no guts to fight in h

Postby Summerlander » Tue May 16, 2017 11:16 am

Let me leave you with an interesting excerpt from Unweaving The Rainbow by Richard Dawkins:

'A brain that is good at simulating models in imagination is also, almost inevitably, in danger of self-delusion. How many of us as children have lain in bed, terrified because we thought we saw a ghost or a monstrous face staring in at the bedroom window, only to discover that it was a trick of the light? I've already discussed how eagerly our brain's simulation software will construct a solid face where the reality is a hollow face. It will just as eagerly make a ghostly face where the reality is a collection of moonlit folds in a white net curtain.

'Every night of our lives we dream. Our simulation software sets up worlds that do not exist; people, animals and places that never existed, perhaps never could exist. At the time, we experience these simulations as though they were reality. Why should we not, given that we habitually experience reality in the same way---as simulation models? The simulation software can delude us when we are awake, too. Illusions like the hollow face are in themselves harmless, and we understand how they work. But our simulation software can also, if we are drugged, or feverish, or fasting, produce hallucinations. Throughout history, people have seen visions of angels, saints and gods; and these have seemed very real to them. Well, of course they WOULD seem real. They are models, put together, by the normal simulation software. The simulation software is using the same modelling techniques as it uses ordinarily when it presents its continuously updated edition of reality. No wonder these visions have been so influential. No wonder they have changed people's lives. So if ever we hear a story that somebody has seen a vision, been visited by an archangel, or heard voices in the head, we should immediately be suspicious of taking it at face value.'

Me, being the hard-nosed, atheistic sceptic that I am, also possess the same kind of brain capable of producing ultra-realistic simulations. I'm not immune to brain porkies either. I can experience sleep paralysis and feel the presence of ghostly intruders. And I know what it's like to have an irrational fear even though the voice of reason reminds me that it's all a mental simulation.

Lucid dreams, like OBEs, do provide the impression that one is elsewhere other than the sleeping body. The difference is in interpretation. The lucid dreamer recognises that it's only a dissociative illusion aided by the brain's power to place proprioception in elaborate three-dimensional fabrications. The OBEr---who on the other hand is convinced he or she is truly out-of-body---suffers from delusion.

So of course lucid dreamers can program and control their mental experiences with ease---or at least possess a higher degree of control---because they acknowlege the fact that they are only dreams (virtual realities created by their minds). OBErs think they experience things beyond their minds and, for that reason, miss out.

Hence why I argue that lucid dreaming is not only more advanced, it is also applying the correct logic to lucid mental experiences. As for waking consciousness during sleep, lucid dreams can possess that too. It is the hallmark of strong lucidity.

But labels and semantics aside, the brain only reflects a spectral array of the same hybrid phase state, which is characterised by Gamma waves of activity. This phase state is what compounds waking consciousness and dreaming. How you interpret the experiences you have in that state is what makes a difference, but one which isn't necessarily based on truisms.

If you experience an OBE in the waking state, it is more likely that your thalamus, or some other brain region, played a dissociative trick on you. Nothing leaves the body. Consciousness is not tangible nor is it a thing apart from bodies. Consciousness is merely phenomenal because of the impact environments have on physical systems which have the ability to process information.

You suffer from confirmation bias and your brain isn't immune to the gambler's fallacy. Something like that happened in the Monte Carlo casino once and people lost a lot of money because they erroneously believed that a bout of reds was due after a succession of blacks on the roulette---as though nature cares about some temporal equipoise of possible results. The truth is, it doesn't. Like heads or tails, the following rows are just as likely as each other:

HTHTTHHHTHTHTTTHHT

TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

The universe doesn't care. The human mind cares and seeks patterns. That's the truth.

Real scientists don't ignore paranormal reports---they have actually investigated them; so you are wrong in saying that ghost sightings get ignored. A range of mundane explanations for such illusions and delusions have been unravelled already. I recommend that you read Paranormality by Richard Wise and even Tricks of the Mind by Derren Brown. Both books list numerous experiments and investigations that have already been conducted. But you have not read such books because you suffer from confirmation bias and yes ... you are very anti-scientific.

It is venial for children to believe in ghosts. But when an adult does it .. ;D

By the way, this thread goes beyond anything that could possibly be discussed in your ludicrous forum. I'd love to see you addressing some of its points but I doubt that you even have the intellectual capacity to comprehend them, Praveen:

http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=16533
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Re: Summerlander exposes praveen as a nitwit

Postby Summerlander » Tue May 16, 2017 3:36 pm

Praveen has just conceded that he was wrong and asked me 'politely' not to exposed his minions to my immaculate knowledge. But I won't do that. My goal is to educate people and his members can read this page on his forum now. Praveen does not have the means to answer to clear reasoning and he has failed to convince anyone of the alleged veracity of astral projection. 8)
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